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Official Court Transcript of Victim Impact Testimony of Mr NOU Hoan, 30 May 2013

Mr Nou Hoan, Civil Party represented by Mr SAM Sokong and Ms Lyma NGUYEN (and their legal team) was the first Civil Party to provide victim impact testimony on 30 May 2013.  Mr Nou Hoan’s evidence appears at pages 2 – 41 of this transcript.  See also CTM Blog for a summary of this day’s victim impact statements by clicking here.

Download (PDF, 1.29MB)

Mr NOU Hoan, Civil Party of Mr SAM Sakong and Ms Lyma NGUYEN provides moving Victim Impact Testimony on Day 3

Please note – the official transcript of this Victim Impact Hearing can also be viewed on our webpage, or by clicking here.

“Morally, I Take the Responsibility”: Nuon Chea Responds to Civil Parties

Cambodia Tribunal Monitor

May 30, 2013

By Mary Kozlovski [1]

On Thursday, May 30, 2013, four more civil parties testified at a third consecutive victim impact hearing in Case 002 at the Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia (ECCC). The civil parties made statements about the harm they suffered under the Democratic Kampuchea (DK) regime, either before or after being questioned by their lawyers.

Prosecutors and defense lawyers were allowed limited time to question civil parties about facts in Case 002. Both accused responded to some questions from civil parties during the proceedings. The civil parties who testified were Nou Hoan, Sophan Sovany, Yin Roum Doul, and Po Dina. An additional impact hearing will be held on Tuesday, June 4, 2013.

On May 30, 2013, 600 students from Kampong Cham province attended the hearing. Khieu Samphan was present in the courtroom, while Nuon Chea observed the hearing and responded to civil parties’ questions remotely from a holding cell due to his health issues.

First Civil Party Called to the Stand
Civil party Nou Hoan, 79, told the court he was born in Prey Veng province’s Preah Sdach district and currently lived in Austin, Texas, in the U.S. He told Trial Chamber President Nil Nonn that his wife died in 1998 and that he has three children. After brief confusion about the order of the civil party’s statement and examination by his lawyers, National Civil Party Co-Lawyer Sam Sokon asked him to describe his experiences during the evacuation of Phnom Penh in April 1975.

Nou Hoan Describes Evacuations under Khmer Rouge|
The civil party testified that during the evacuation, in the middle of the dry season heat, a huge crowd of shocked people moved along; many had few belongings, some wore banana leaves on their feet instead of shoes, and some lost their children and families. Mr. Hoan said the situation was chaotic: they did not know where to obtain food, flies swarmed and there were no toilets, so people had to relieve themselves in the forest. Some people died along the road, and those who were sick were forced by Angkar to keep moving, with certain people leaving their ill family members behind, he recalled.

Mr. Hoan described how his family traveled along National Road 1 toward Prey Veng and Svay Rieng provinces – from where some crossed into Vietnam – and suffered from a lack of food and medical supplies. He told the court he lost one of his daughters, after she stayed with other family members – a group of eight altogether including his in-laws[2], their children, his daughter, and an elderly mother – during the evacuation and they went in a separate direction. Mr. Hoan recollected being told at a Buddhist ceremony near O’Russey market[3] in 1979 by a distant relative who was in the same cooperative that they went to Kampong Speu province. He said he heard that after one of the children fell sick and received a pellet of rabbit droppings, they were taken away at night and executed.[4]

After a black-and-white photograph of several children was displayed on the screen for the parties and the public, Mr. Hoan identified his daughter in the image, saying she wore a flowered shirt and was nine or 10 years old at the time of the evacuation. The civil party still wondered why his daughter and other family members were killed and, though he had other children, he regretted losing his daughter. He added that his younger brother’s family was also lost. Angkar dismantled their house near Neak Loeung[5], in an area controlled earlier on by Khmer Rouge forces, Mr. Hoan recollected. Families from that area had to either evacuate from their native villages closer to Neak Loeung or take refuge in Phnom Penh, and his family lost their documents, including birth certificates, medical records, and photographs, he said.[6]

When asked how he felt about testifying, Mr. Hoan replied that he was grateful for the opportunity to speak in front of the chamber regarding his personal suffering. On the issue of reparations, Mr. Hoan stated that there were so many victims he could not imagine financial reparations, though even these would not offset the suffering. He reaffirmed that he appreciated the opportunity to speak in court and to the Cambodian people about his suffering and hoped that the chamber would be able to find justice, so that the souls of victims and their family members could feel at peace.

Co-Accused Respond to Civil Party’s Queries
At this point, Mr. Hoan posed two questions to defendants Khieu Samphan and Nuon Chea. He stated that during the course of proceedings, the accused have argued that they knew nothing about what occurred during the DK period. If certain DK leaders were executed when they were in power, Mr. Hoan inquired, did the accused knew who was responsible? Secondly, Mr. Hoan noted that the defendants asserted that they sacrificed their personal happiness to protect the nation: how could they claim to defend the national interest if they killed their own people, including intellectuals?

Rising from his seat, Khieu Samphan commented that Mr. Hoan’s testimony described another tragedy that befell a family, alongside other civil parties’ stories. He said he wished to apologize to Mr. Hoan and the Cambodian people that during the DK period he was unaware of their great suffering. As he told other civil parties over the previous two days, Khieu Samphan affirmed that he did not know what was going on during DK because he was not an effective regime leader but a highly educated intellectual who was considered then to be not of “a firm stance.” “They only wanted us to know about good things, about progress in the country, and about the atrocity or bad thing that had happened in the country, I was not informed of,” the defendant averred.

Continuing, Khieu Samphan said that he joined DK “virtually by accident” because he wished to help the country and mobilize national forces to fight the war. He asserted that when he joined DK, he did not do so to kill innocent people. Khieu Samphan told the court he strongly condemned the murderers who killed Mr. Hoan’s family and wanted them to be brought to justice.

After Khieu Samphan finished speaking Nuon Chea, who appeared to be speaking from his holding cell while two security guards supported him, said he wished to reiterate that during the DK period he was deputy secretary of the Communist Party of Kampuchea (CPK), in charge of propaganda and education in the party. He added that he was in charge of “the chairman of the committee for the people’s assembly.” “In the executive branch, I had no power whatsoever,” Nuon Chea asserted. He said he was aware of some things during the DK period but not others:

I am not trying to evade justice, or I am not trying to evade my responsibility, but I am telling you the truth. And I, of course, was the one of the leaders of this government. I am not rejecting my responsibility; I share the responsibility as the leader of this regime but my role, as I told you, that I had no role in the executive branch of the government.

Nuon Chea said that Vietnamese troops arrived to invade Cambodia before he chaired the national assembly. Before sitting down, the defendant expressed his condolences for Mr. Hoan’s loss and for his own family members who died.

Nou Hoan Makes Final Statement
Following the accused’s responses, Mr. Hoan expressed his gratitude to the UN and the Cambodian government for establishing the tribunal and to the international community for supporting it. “I hope that this tribunal will achieve its mandate and the court will be able to bring justice to the victims,” he said. “I am one of the victims who are waiting for the justice.” Mr. Hoan added that he hoped his contribution would assist the court.

The civil party said he believed the “organization”[7] was brutal, wanting Cambodian people to live in a sovereign state with territorial integrity but with policies that did not fit all people. He asserted that the organization was dictatorial and authoritarian in forcing people to abide by its policies and not allowing them to express dissatisfaction. Mr. Hoan said the Khmer Rouge spoke of goals they could not accomplish, such as wanting Cambodia to develop through a “Great Leap Forward.” Rhetorically, he asked how the country was supposed to develop if the Khmer Rouge killed intellectuals. Mr. Hoan recalled that in the 1960s he heard through news and word of mouth that Khieu Samphan was “clean” – an intellectual who was not corrupt, whom he believed would defend the country. He continued, “In Cambodia, there is a saying that goes: if a rotten apple is among other apples in the basket, then the whole basket of apples is considered rotten. And I feel very sorry for you [Khieu Samphan] for having participated with them.”

Finally, Mr. Hoan said he hoped the court would adjudicate the case based on the evidence and the testimony of survivors to find justice for victims and the DK leaders.

Prosecution Questions Nou Hoan
After Mr. Hoan’s statement, National Deputy Co-Prosecutor Seng Bunkheang inquired whether Mr. Hoan went from Phnom Penh to Prey Veng out of choice or because he was ordered. The civil party replied that he and his family were heading toward the eastern side of the city and the soldiers told them to keep walking. He said it took them about a month to reach that destination and they heard that Khieu Samphan would be coming to reorganize the country. Mr. Hoan confirmed that there were Khmer Rouge soldiers along the road they traveled on and he observed some people dead and bodies decomposing. He recalled that some people walked up and down the road searching for their families and his family received some rice from two Khmer Rouge soldiers before crossing the river to their native village.

Under questioning from the prosecutor, Mr. Hoan recollected witnessing writing on a blackboard[8]directing public servants, police officers, and military officials to register their names to be returned to Phnom Penh, so that Angkar could reorganize the country. He told the court that some people wrote their names but he did not believe it was true and only death awaited them because Cambodian law at that time was “rather strict.” Mr. Hoan mentioned that he had read some “communist doctrines” and observed some Lon Nol soldiers being taken aside as they traveled, which he believed was an indication of danger. Some people told him that they thought those people were being taken away and killed, he added.

Pressed about his reference to Khieu Samphan returning to Phnom Penh to “reorganize,” Mr. Hoan stated that some families travelling toward Prey Veng who knew Khieu Samphan stated that he would return to Phnom Penh and invite former civil servants to come back.

The civil party recalled that upon reaching his native village, the Khmer Rouge searched their belongings, confiscating medical equipment like syringes, though not taking away medicine. He told the court he only remained there for a week because people formerly from the village returned after liberation and his family was sent to another village about three kilometers away. Around May, Mr. Hoan recollected, he attended a study session at the Preah Sdach office[9] with about 300 people – including his uncle and younger brother – where they had to sleep on the ground and there was no food except red corn, watery soup, and a bit of salt.[10]

Defense Teams Cross-Examine Civil Party
Firstly, National Co-Lawyer for Nuon Chea Son Arun inquired about Mr. Hoan’s educational and professional background. The civil party replied that he left primary school in 1953 and went to study at a college in Svay Rieng province, after which he passed the exam to become a health department employee. He stated that he worked in many positions in the health ministry between late 1958 and 1975 and confirmed that he lived in Preah Sdach district in Prey Veng before the evacuation. Describing the Khmer Rouge soldiers, Mr. Hoan said they wore black uniforms, wore car tire sandals and berets, and carried AK-47s. He told the defense lawyer that he remained in the same cooperative in Prey Veng province’s Preah Sdach district during the regime. When asked about the death of his daughter, Mr. Hoan said he only knew that she and his younger brother-in-law’s family were gathered up during the night, but he did not know how or where they were killed.

After the Nuon Chea defense concluded their questioning, National Co-Lawyer for Khieu Samphan Kong Sam Onn inquired about Mr. Hoan’s knowledge of Khieu Samphan’s role in Cambodia during the 1960s. The civil party replied that he knew Khieu Samphan had a newspaper calledL’Observateur and that he was a representative in the National Assembly under the Sangkum Reastr Niyum regime and became a secretary of state at the Ministry of Commerce. Through word of mouth, Mr. Hoan said, he heard that Khieu Samphan was a “clean person” and “anti-corruption,” adding:

I also heard a rumor … that one day when he was the secretary of state of the Ministry of Commerce, a capitalist bought a brand new Mercedes and left it under his house with the car keys. And upon his return from work he asked whose car it belonged to, then the one who worked at his house said this person gave it to him, but then he asked his driver to return the car. Although it is true or not, is beyond my understanding.

Mr. Hoan stated that he read in newspapers that Khieu Samphan left Phnom Penh for the maquis forest, which he believed were areas under Khmer Rouge control. When asked about the meaning behind his earlier reference to a Khmer proverb about rotting apples in a basket, Mr. Hoan responded that Khieu Samphan had acknowledged that he was an intellectual and regarded as a person of “soft stance.”

There is a Khmer proverb that one rotten apple would rot all the apples in the basket – this could mean that he was a clean person, a non-corrupt person, and how come he could go and live with the black-hearted group of the Khmer Rouge? For that reason, we could infer that he would also become a rotten apple. Although even now Khieu Samphan still claims that he is a clean person, a non-rotten apple, but based on the saying he’s also part of the rotten apples in the basket.

At this point, International Co-Lawyer for Khieu Samphan Arthur Vercken asked who told Mr. Hoan that Khieu Samphan would return to Phnom Penh to reorganize the country. The civil party responded that his family members who worked in Prey Veng provincial hall received that information. Following a somewhat ambiguous question about medicine, Mr. Hoan said during the evacuation they were able to hide some medicines with them, and the Khmer Rouge thought some modern medicines were imperialist, so they had to be self-reliant. The civil party said Angkar felt that “imperialist materials” would not help the sick and those with access to modern medicine from France had to hide it from others and from the Khmer Rouge.[11]

Second Civil Party Begins Testimony
Civil party Sophan Sovany was called to the stand. She told President Nonn that she is 57 years old; she was born in Phnom Penh and currently lives in Pursat province’s Kandieng district, where she works as a rice farmer. Ms. Sovany said her mother and father were dead. She has a husband and three children.

Sophan Sovany Describes Experiences under Khmer Rouge Regime
Beginning her statement, Ms. Sovany testified that on April 17, 1975, she was living with her family in Phnom Penh when they heard an announcement on a mobile loudspeaker that they had to leave their house because Americans would drop bombs imminently. She recalled that the family did not believe it and went to the main road from the side road their house was on, where they heard the same message. Two or three militiamen entered their house and asked why they were still there, and after hearing shots fired into the air, they rushed out to the main road, she recollected.

Ms. Sovany described the road as “packed with people,” including the sick, along with bicycles, vehicles, and rickshaws; one person who requested that they return to find their family members were not permitted by Khmer Rouge soldiers, who made people move along the roads and carried weapons. The civil party said there were flies and human excrement everywhere and dead bodies on the roadside. She testified that it took the family two days to reach Prek Pneu[12], where they drank whatever water they could get and Khmer Rouge soldiers announced – to peoples’ shock – that there would be no market and money could not be used. People wondered how they could obtain food and had only brought small things with them, Ms. Sovany recalled, adding that some people threw away their money or burned it.

After crossing Prek Kdam[13] by ferry, Ms. Sovany testified that they continued walking for 15 days and almost reached Kampong Thom province and stayed in a pagoda where there were no monks and some Buddha statues were damaged. Four or five military personnel arrived the next day and told them to work in the village and there was no need to go to Kampong Thom, she recounted. Ms. Sovany said the village chief arrived the next day and instructed them to pull rice seedlings, which they did not know how to do because they were a family of business people. “I did not even know what rice stalks looked like,” Ms. Sovany told the court. They continued to work for four or five days before her father requested to go to Kampong Thom to find his parents, she said. Ms. Sovany recalled that a few soldiers scolded his father for being capitalist and not wanting to do the work assigned by Angkar, instructing them to keep working and saying they would ask that his parents came if the family worked well.

The civil party described how the next day a fisherman took pity on the family and told her father secretly to flee, as the family would be killed because they were considered capitalists. The man helped them to escape that night on his boat, she recollected, after which they continued through the jungle amid swarms of mosquitoes before making it to village whose chief could not take them because they were “17 April people”[14] and directed them to Rokar Kaong.[15] In Rokar Kaong, the family located her father’s nephew and were permitted by the village chief to stay and work with the base people there, she recalled. After two days, they were asked to cut “kok,”[16] which caused their hands to bleed because they did not know how to do it properly, Ms. Sovany told the court. Following four or five days spent cutting the plants, the civil party said, it took her 15 days altogether to make a trip on a bicycle to retrieve salt and rice rations. The civil recalled that she was exhausted when she returned home and the family received only one kilogram of salt after being promised half the amount she could carry.[17]

Three or four days later, Ms. Sovany recollected that the Khmer Rouge announced that new people in Rokar Kaong would be transferred to work in the rice fields in Pursat and Battambang provinces, where rice was abundant and stored in warehouses. Though the family did not believe this information, Ms. Sovany told the court, they had no choice and left on a boat guarded by Khmer Rouge soldiers. The civil party said some children cried because they were hungry – as did her younger siblings – and they were shouted at to look after the children or be thrown overboard. After disembarking off the boat, Ms. Sovany said they were put into three or four trucks that went to a railway station, where they were closed into wagons and not permitted to relieve themselves. She told the court they got off the train and onto trucks in Pursat province, travelling to a cooperative in Kandieng district where there was nothing but forest. Ms. Sovany recalled that the family had to clear bushes to farm and build a hut for shelter and at the time they were given five cans of rice per person, within her family of eight people.

Describing their division of labor, Ms. Sovany recollected that her father was asked to clear bushes, her mother to do other jobs, and her brothers and sister were in the mobile unit, while Ms. Sovany was attached to the district mobile unit and had to separate from the family. She testified that there was no food and she almost wanted to commit suicide. Later, Ms. Sovany heard from a man she knew that her father was sick in Kandieng hospital and escaped across a stream to visit him, but was told he had already died and would not tell her about her mother’s health condition.[18]She recalled hearing a few weeks later that her sisters had died from disease. After her position changed, Ms. Sovany told the court, she went to look for her younger brother, who she found sick and who begged her desperately for a bite of rice. The civil party said she could not help him and he later died of starvation and disease.

Thereafter, Ms. Sovany testified, she was transferred to dig canals and dykes, but she decided that she would not go and left, walking into the forest until she reached Damnak Choeu Krom[19] along the Cardamom mountains and met the cooperative chief.[20] Ms. Sovany said she told the chief that she was asked to cut wood in the forest, but lost her way. The civil party recalled that she was permitted to join the cooperative and was assigned to dig canals, where the conditions were harsh and she had to carry water from the stream and break rocks. She described her hands as bleeding and swollen, but added that she could not protest. “Before my father passed away, he once told me that I had to struggle, I had to live on in my life, so I had to continue to live,” Ms. Sovany recollected.

Next, Ms. Sovany detailed several events that she witnessed at that particular worksite. She described a young woman who was executed because she hid a necklace and whose leg was visible in the earth in which she was buried. They were told in the cooperative not to be “reactionary” and learn their lesson from that young woman, the civil party recalled. Ms. Sovany said another woman in her cooperative who was seen eating a piece of baked potato could not tell militiamen where she got it and was frogmarched away, blindfolded, and beaten until she was motionless, before being dragged away “like an animal.”

Ms. Sovany told the court that another woman who committed “sexual wrongdoing” and was seven months pregnant was frogmarched into the forest by three militiamen. Ms. Sovany testified that she followed them and witnessed her being unclothed and beaten to death with a hoe, before a soldier cut open her abdomen. After she returned to her worksite, the civil party said a female unit chief could not complete her work quota because she sprained her ankle. In the evening, Ms. Sovany testified that the woman was shot and killed, then buried in a pit she dug herself. The civil party said she also saw two trucks carrying people whom she was told were being taken to work somewhere else; however, the next day they returned clothes and sandals to the worksite and she thought the people must have been killed. Finally, Ms. Sovany informed the court that her life had been miserable and she lost her parents, siblings, and relatives.

Prosecution Briefly Questions Sophan Sovany
After Ms. Sovany’s statement, International Assistant Co-Prosecutor Dale Lysak inquired if she knew of a place called Tuol Po Chrey. The civil party responded that Tuol Po Chrey was far from her village, but she learned after 1979 that it was a place where soldiers were executed. Noting that the defendants had claimed one reason for moving people from Phnom Penh was so they would have enough food to eat, Mr. Lysak asked if Ms. Sovany and her family had had sufficient food in any of the locations to which they were evacuated. Ms. Sovany said that if they had enough food her parents, relatives, and siblings would not have died.

Neither the Nuon Chea defense nor Khieu Samphan’s defense had questions for Ms. Sovany. Her testimony concluded.

Third Civil Party Called to Testify
Next, civil party Yin Roum Doul entered the courtroom. He told President Nonn that he was born in 1965 in Phnom Penh and would be 48 years old in 2013. Mr. Roum Doul stated that he currently lives in Siem Reap province’s Siem Reap district where he works as a civil servant and is married with two children.

Yin Roum Doul Details Life during the DK Period

Beginning his statement in 1975, Mr. Roum Doul testified that he was 10 years old and living with his parents near Chenla Theater when the Khmer Rouge took control of Phnom Penh. He recalled applauding with others when he saw the black-clad soldiers and seeing Cambodian people raise white flags and cheer for the return of peace. Mr. Roum Doul told the court he went to watch incoming tanks, artillery and cannons; after returning to his house between 10 a.m. and 11:30 a.m. he was shocked to hear gunshots fired in the street. The civil party described Khmer Rouge soldiers with pants rolled up to their knees carrying AK-47s and shooting into the air. After shots were fired into a house opposite theirs, the soldier who lived there returned fire, he recalled.

In the evening, the Khmer Rouge shot twice into his house – perhaps firstly with an M-16 or AK-47 and then a rocket launcher – and his family decided to leave, walking toward Monivong Boulevard and seeing dead bodies. When they reached Chbar Ampeu[21] in the morning, the Khmer Rouge demanded to know his brother’s and elder cousin’s identities; his brother showed them his student identification card and they were let go, Mr. Roum Doul said, adding that they then went to his grandfather’s house in Prek Eang village[22] where they stayed for a few days. Mr. Roum Doul testified that his mother and elder brother elected to return to his mother’s area in Kandal province, where a village chief in Ksach Kandal district did not permit them to stay because they knew his father was a professor and senior public servant. He stated that they were then moved to Morbang village in Vihear Suor commune[23], where they lived for a few months before the authorities evacuated them. His parents and family members – including his partially paralysed grandfather – stopped at Prek Prosop village in Ksach Kandal district and were put on a boat to Phnom Penh, which was “emptiness and silence” when they arrived, Mr. Roum Doul recollected.

From Phnom Penh, he said they boarded trucks to Pursat province’s Bakan district. After stepping off the trucks they were put on ox-carts and taken to O’Prel village in Metoek commune, where Mr. Roum Doul stated that he was assigned to a children’s unit separate from his mother, grandparents, and family members. Mr. Roum Doul testified that he was tortured and beaten for stealing a potato and sugar cane because he was hungry and there was no food. He told the court he was tied up and beaten – his eyebrow split – and he tried to run away but was brought back. After stealing and eating some rice seedlings one night, Mr. Roum Doul recalled, the village chief arrested him and handed him over to the militia. He stated that at the time his mother was in hospital and she said that his being arrested was like her being arrested. Mr. Roum Doul said the militia walked him with his mother to a prison in Metoek commune, where he became emaciated and swollen partly because of a lack of food. While in prison, Mr. Roum Doul testified, he was beaten unconscious and interrogated and forced to engage in heavy labor digging and carrying soil and planting rice seedlings.

Mr. Roum Doul described a meeting at which the village chief and leaders announced that if any person fled from a prison the entire family would be smashed. However Mr. Roum Doul said his mother believed he must flee, so he escaped one night during heavy rain as the militia changed shifts, reaching the village where his grandmother was living. When his aunt went to the prison where his mother was detained, she was told that his mother had died, Mr. Roum Doul recollected.[24] “I was victimized by the regime under the leadership of Ieng Sary, Pol Pot, Nuon Chea,” he said. Later, Mr. Roum Doul told the court that he feared the militia would come after him, so he left the village and met with his cousin who worked in a transportation unit, whose chief “rescued” him.

The civil party said “Theu,” the unit chief, allowed him to stay in the unit because they needed someone to herd buffaloes and cattle, and defended him against several attempts on his life. “[Theu] told the chief of the militia not to mistreat me because I was young and I knew nothing,” he recollected. Mr. Roum Doul testified that he witnessed the torture and killing of people from Svay Rieng province in 1978, which Theu told him to keep quiet about. Theu also told him to stay quiet after he saw a family of about five or six people executed by the Khmer Rouge, he recalled. Mr. Roum Doul said he knew of a woman who was raped by the militia and then killed.

Mr. Roum Doul told the court he lost his parents and his uncle, which was painful for him as a child, and he had been waiting 34 years for this day:

I want them to give back what they owed me in their names as the leaders of the regime. They have to be responsible for those acts. They have to open the new chapter of the history and to reveal the bad things that they act under the Khmer Rouge regime, in their names as the leaders. … What was the morality of the leaders? And that’s for you, Khieu Samphan, to think, likewise for Nuon Chea. You are one of the intellectuals, you should consider that, and you must dare facing the truth and tell the truth to the nation and the world, and you should not feel regret to do so.

Lawyer Asks Yim Roum Doul about Requests for the Court
Under questioning from National Civil Party Co-Lawyer Chet Vanly, Mr. Roum Doul stated that his father Yin Sinaret was a professor and senior military officer.[25] The civil party said he wished for Nuon Chea and Khieu Samphan to tell the truth and wanted the court to find justice for himself and the nation and punish the perpetrators in proportion to the crimes committed. He added that he did not wish to claim reparations but asked for a stupa to be built for his parents in Ksach Kandal district.

Civil Party Puts Questions to Accused
Posing his questions to the two accused, Mr. Roum Doul inquired if they knew about the arrest and disappearance of his father – a professor and colonel based near Neak Loeung – and if they considered and regretted the consequences of killing and separating family members  and their participation in the regime. Then he asked if the accused, as intellectuals, would tell the truth about the events that occurred in DK and planned to express sorrow to him, the nation, and the world. Finally, he asked Khieu Samphan what he knew about people’s living conditions, suffering as they did from hunger, detention, arbitrary arrest, torture, and killing.

Khieu Samphan replied that he would feel the same sorrow and pain if he were Mr. Roum Doul. He told Mr. Roum Doul that he never knew the civil party’s father and felt sorry for his disappearance and killing. Khieu Samphan repeated that after fleeing the city and taking refuge in the forest, he was under the Khmer Rouge leaders’ protection until 1979. He asserted that his role in DK was to save his own life and he never knew about the atrocities committed by military commanders and leaders – which deserved condemnation – or the great suffering of the people. The defendant offered his condolences to the civil parties who had testified and their families but said he was not a CPK ideologue. As in previous responses, Khieu Samphan reiterated that he did not join DK to kill people but to help protect and develop Cambodia. “Unfortunately, it turned out to be a complete disaster,” he admitted. Khieu Samphan emphasized that he would cooperate with the court to the best of his ability, hence he was answering civil parties’ questions and was prepared to answer those posed by other parties.

Recalling that he had put his hands together to apologize to civil party Huo Chantha, Khieu Samphan said through her he would like to apologize to all Cambodian people who suffered under the regime and offer his condolences. Turning back to the DK era, the defendant argued that while people looking from the outside would consider him a person of authority – indeed, his title was “huge” – he had no power and no authority to arrest anyone. Khieu Samphan said he was working in a top position but did not know what was happening on the ground or that people had been tortured, abused, mistreated or detained arbitrarily at the bases. He added again that he did not have a decision-making role in DK. Referring to Mr. Hoan’s comment describing him as a rotten apple, he stated, “I am not a rotten apple because I did not commit these heinous crimes and those who committed these crimes would be the most stupid person on Earth and I would not imagine that anyone could committee such a very serious crime.”

After Khieu Samphan finished speaking, Nuon Chea, sitting on a bed in his cell, said he wished to say that he was responsible for what happened during the DK period. Elaborating, the defendant stated:

I am not evading my responsibility; I am bearing the responsibility from my heart. I am being frank with you in my capacity as a member of DK. I accept the responsibility, even though I committed directly or indirectly, but I feel remorseful for the crimes that were committed intentionally or unintentionally, and whether or not I had known about it or not known about. And I would like to reiterate that I take the responsibility morally. Morally, I take the responsibility.

Nuon Chea expressed condolences for Mr. Roum Doul’s family. He repeated his earlier remarks about his role during the DK period and lack of authority in the executive branch of government.

Prosecution Examines Yin Roum Doul
Under questioning from Mr. Bunkheang about Khmer Rouge soldiers shooting at his house on April 17, 1975, Mr. Roum Doul repeated his earlier testimony about the incident. He added that the Khmer Rouge launched a rocket propeller into the house of a nearby resident – a colonel who had exchanged gunfire with them – whom he believed was killed. He then described how his brother brought a car during the evacuation but it ran out of gasoline. There was great misery, Mr. Roum Doul recalled; some people had IVs still in their hands and corpses were strewn along the street but his family could not help others. Mr. Roum Doul testified that they did not have sufficient food or water and his mother dumped their banknotes because they were rendered useless. He told the prosecutor that he travelled to Pursat by train around late 1975 or early 1976 with many other people, and at the time he had never heard of Tuol Po Chrey.

Neither of the two defense teams had questions for Mr. Roum Doul. President Nonn announced that his testimony had concluded.

Fourth Civil Party Quizzed about Family Background and Evacuation

Civil party Po Dina, 60, told President Nonn that she was born in Koh Dach commune, in Kandal province’s Muk Kampoul district but currently lives in Kampong Speu province’s Chbar Mon district. Ms. Dina said she worked in a laundry; her husband had died and she had one child.

Under questioning from National Civil Party Co-Lawyer Ty Srinna, Ms. Dina testified that before 1975 she lived close to the Thai Embassy, near the Royal Palace in Phnom Penh; her husband Sao Sarin worked in the Thai embassy, where she was also employed in the kitchen. Ms. Dina described their living condition as good, but on April 17, 1975, Khmer Rouge soldiers entered their house asking for the owners. She repeatedly told them the owners were not in and she was a guard, but they did not believe her and smashed things in the residence. Ms. Dina said that when her husband heard the noise he came out and was grabbed by four or five soldiers, who asked if he was the owner. Her husband also stated that they were guards, Ms. Dina recollected, but they did not believe him either and beat him with a rifle butt, kicked him, and told him to tell the truth. Though Ms. Dina said she begged them not to mistreat her husband, they continued kicking him and tied his hands behind his back.

At this point, Ms. Dina recalled, Prince Norodom Kontal emerged and asked the soldiers not to mistreat her husband, but they did not desist. Crying, the civil party recounted how they eventually released her husband and left but that another group of soldiers later arrived, threatening them and telling them to leave immediately because they needed to “reorganize” the city. They rode on a motorbike to Monivong Bridge where they witnessed people marching out of the city and then had to walk, sleeping on the way and fainting from physical weakness, Ms. Dina told the court.

The civil party testified that it took them a few days to get to Prek Eang, where they heard through a loudspeaker that people from Phnom Penh had to register. Ms. Dina said her husband wanted to register but she warned him that they should not and so they continued walking, heading for her hometown of Koh Dach village in Kandal province’s Muk Kampoul district. Ms. Dina described their arrival as follows:

When we got there, they once again called us for family registration. We registered the members of our family, and they categorized us as 17 April people. They called us 17 April people. They told us that we were 17 April people, so we could not stop over there. We had to go on walking. And I begged them to [let us] stay there for some time because we had been tired and they refused. They said that … their village was in the state of a shortage of food supply, so we had to go on.

Prompted by Ms. Srinna, Ms. Dina recalled that they had no spoons, pots, or anything to prepare food during the evacuation and they witnessed Lon Nol soldiers tied up and frogmarched in lines. She said she was frightened by the scene and did not know what had happened to their families. Upon reaching her hometown, Ms. Dina testified, they had no shelter or food, after receiving four cans of rice for a few days.[26] After a month the family boarded a double-decker boat with some 30 to 40 families and their belongings were confiscated, Ms. Dina told the court. They traveled northward for about two hours and got off the boat and onto trucks, which arrived in Pursat the following morning. She described people being hungry on the journey and children crying because they had been separated from their families. Based on the number of family members, the civil party testified, they were put into different cooperatives, had no food or shelter, and had to sleep on the ground.

Ms. Dina said they were evacuated to another area with about 10 families, which also had no shelter. She testified that her husband was assigned to plow the rice fields and one day he disappeared[27], after which she heard a rumor that he was taken for re-education because he was accused of being a colonel under the Lon Nol regime. Later, Ms. Dina told the court, some militiamen followed her to discover if she was the wife of a colonel or not. At this time, Ms. Dina described how she fell ill and grew weaker because she lost her husband and was accused of being married to a colonel. She recalled that she was made to work extremely hard and could not go anywhere, even to get food rations, and had to send her six-year-old child instead. Ms. Dina stated her son fell ill from starvation after her husband disappeared and begged her for food before dying in front of her. “As a mother, I did not have anything to feed him,” she related. “I feel resentful and I feel angry with myself that I could not help my son.” Later Ms. Dina heard that her mother was seriously ill, but she was not permitted to visit her before she died and was told that medical staff would bury her.

My life was like a woman in the Cambodian folk tale, that I lost everyone: my husband, my mother, and my son. I no longer had any hope with me. My life would become meaningless as all the valuables to my life, that is, my beloved ones, all left.

Ms. Dina recounted an attempt was made after her son died to force her to marry another man, which she refused and for which she was subsequently beaten and imprisoned.[28] She testified that she was interrogated, told she was stubborn and did not follow Angkar’s orders, and would be smashed. Ms. Dina said she kept quiet as they beat her. While in the prison, the civil party told the court she witnessed a man tied up, blindfolded with a plastic bag, and asked if he was a Lon Nol soldier. Though the man denied it, they kept repeating the same questions and beating him, she recollected. Ms. Dina described how she was then sent to a hospital two or three days later and three weeks later, requested a transfer to a farming unit.

While in another area transporting rice up a mountain[29], Ms. Dina testified, she saw people lined up and stabbed with bayonets and, later, Khmer Rouge soldiers opening fire on people from “the east.”[30] After being transferred from a tree-stumping group to a plantation group, Ms. Dina recollected, they mistakenly went to the wrong area and were arrested and detained. She detailed being shackled with chains and beaten for four or five days, before managing to escape and requesting to her unit chief that her other group members be released.

Under further questioning from Ms. Srinna, Ms. Dina said she also lost her elder brother who worked at the Thai embassy, his wife and their children, another elder brother who was a naval officer – a colonel in Kampong Chhnang province – and her younger brother, who also disappeared.

Prosecution Presses for Detail on Po Dina’s Testimony
At this juncture, Mr. Lysak sought more information about Lon Nol soldiers whom Ms. Dina said she had seen tied up and frogmarched away during the forced movement from Phnom Penh. She replied that she saw this near Boeng Snau, as they were walking in the opposite direction along the road toward Phnom Penh. When asked if the Khmer Rouge ever discovered that Ms. Dina had a brother in the navy in Kampong Chhnang, she told the prosecutor that when she arrived in Pursat, they researched her background, and her husband told them he was a motorbike taxi driver.

Nuon Chea Defense Cross-Examines Civil Party
Recounting Ms. Dina’s previous testimony, Mr. Arun inquired about the appearance and attitude of the Khmer Rouge soldiers who entered her house on April 17, 1975. The civil party answered that they were “cruel” and wore black clothing, car tire sandals, and scarves around their necks. They carried rifles, she added.

When asked about the identity of Prince Norodom Kontal, Ms. Dina stated that on April 17, 1975, the prince fled from his residence to take refuge in the residence that Thai embassy staff rented from Princess Peou.[31] Ms. Dina testified that she did not know what happened to Prince Norodom Kontal after he left the house. “The soldiers did not seem to react to him as he begged them not to mistreat my husband and to release him,” she recalled. “One of the Khmer Rouge soldiers nodded his head and untied my husband.”

After Mr. Arun finished questioning Ms. Dina, the Khieu Samphan defense team announced that they had no questions for the civil party. Her testimony concluded.

President Nonn adjourned the hearing. Proceedings are set to resume on Tuesday, June 4, 2013, at 9 a.m., with a fourth and final victim impact hearing.


[1]Cambodia Tribunal Monitor’s daily blog posts on the ECCC are written according to the personal observations of the writer and do not constitute a transcript of the proceedings. Official court transcripts for the ECCC’s hearings may be accessed at http://www.eccc.gov.kh/en/case/topic/2.

[2]These in-laws were later identified as Mr. Hoan’s brother-in-law and his family.

[3]O’Russey market is located in Phnom Penh.

[4]This section of Mr. Hoan’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[5]Neak Loeung is a town in Prey Veng province along the Mekong River.

[6]This section of Mr. Hoan’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[7]This is believed to be a reference to “Angkar,” which means “organization” in Khmer.

[8]The location was unclear in the English translation.

[9]Preah Sdach is a district in Prey Veng province.

[10]This section of Mr. Hoan’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[11]This section of Mr. Hoan’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[12]Prek Pneu is an area located along National Road 5.

[13]Prek Kdam is located along National Road 5 in Kandal province.

[14]“New people” and “17 April people” are terms used to refer to people who were evacuated from cities.

[15]Rokar Kaong is a village in Kandal province.

[16]“Kok” in Khmer is a plant with sharp fronds.

[17]This section of Ms. Sovany’s testimony was unclear in the English translation. She mentioned carrying back 50 kilograms of salt, but it was unclear if this also included the ration of rice.

[18]This section of Ms. Sovany’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[19]Damnak Choeu Krom is a village in Pursat province.

[20]This section of Ms. Sovany’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[21]Chbar Ampeu is a market in Phnom Penh.

[22]It is unclear which province this village is located in.

[23]This is believed to be in Ksach Kandal district in Kandal province.

[24]This section of Mr. Roum Doul’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[25]In this response, Mr. Roum Doul stated that his father was arrested on April 16, 1975, and he disappeared. However, during his previous statement, he mentioned being with his parents. Furthermore, in this answer he said his father was a commander of Division 16 of the Khmer Rouge forces, but previously spoke of his father as a senior civil servant. These points are unclear in the English translation.

[26]At this point, Ms. Dina said they had to work in the rice fields, after previously stating that they were not permitted to stay. This section was unclear in the English translation.

[27]This section of Ms. Dina’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[28]In this response, Ms. Dina described this as a “prison without walls.” It was unclear in the English translation whether she was being literal or not.

[29]The location of this area and mountain were unclear in the English translation.

[30]This section of Ms. Dina’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[31]Princess Peou is a relative of Prince Norodom Kontal, who was a relative of Norodom Sihanouk.

Tales Of Horror Continue To Emerge At KR Tribunal

Cambodia Daily, 30 May 2013, page 16, by Lauren Crothers

Thouch Phandara remembers clearly the T-shirt her little boy was wearing when he succumbed to meningitis in the throes of the Khmer Rouge regime.

The 67-year-old civil party witness in the Khmer Rouge tribunal’s Case 002 took the stand yesterday and said her husband, a doctor, had made the diagnosis.

As her son’s faded black-and-white picture was projected on a screen in the courtroom, Ms. Phandara broke down as she remembered the desperate attempts that were made to save his life.

“We tried to exchange jewels for penicillin, but no one had any,” she said. “He’d been wearing a yellow T-shirt and it had a slogan on it: ‘If I smile at you, will you smile at me?’

“When I saw that on his deathbed, I think any mother would understand the appalling emotion I went through,” Ms. Phandara said as she wept in court.

The photograph was one of two that Ms. Phandara, who now lives in Paris, managed to hold on to over the course of the regime – the other was of her beloved mother, to whom she dedicated her court appearance.

“I was very careful to hand on to these photographs,” she said. “I covered them in plastic and hid them underground.”

The loss of Ms. Phandara’s parents – who she said were thrown naked into a ditch – was “why I’m here to ask the court for justice.”

“I’m here to give the deceased back their souls so they may live in peace,”she said. “I know their souls are lost between the living and the dead, and if there is justice, that would be an honor to them. Not just for them, but for the 2 million other Cambodians who disappeared thanks to that Khmer Rouge regime.”

She said that to this day she has an obsession with food after having been deprived of it for so long during the regime.

Other harrowing testimony was given by Chan Socheat, 56, Huo Chantha, 60, and Chheng Eng Ly, 60. The latter told the court that during the evacuation of Phnom Penh, she came across a disturbing scence – a hungry baby crawling over the body of its dead mother.

Ms. Eng Ly’s maternal instinct made her want to take the baby with her, but she feared greatly for her safety. “All of a sudden, a soldier picked up the baby and they tore him apart – it was a very horrifying scene. I couldn’t imagine any human being would do that,” she said via video link from paris, where she too now lives.

Both Khieu Samphan and Nuon Chea responded to questions put to them throughout the day, though Nuon Chea declined to do so as the day drew on, citing exhaustion.

Both insisted it had not been Khmer Rouge policy to wipe out their countrymen, and that the main concern was to stave off an invasion by neighbouring countries.

“We wanted our collective forces to unite in order to defend our country to avoid being invaded by neighbouring countries… So I’d like to take this opportunity to express sympathy to those who lost their lives… Each and every one of us sacrificed personal happiness, we sacrificed for our nation,” Nuon Chea said.

Civil Parties Provide Testimony on Day 2 of Victim Impact Hearings in Case 002/01

Cambodia Tribunal Monitor
May 29, 2013

By Mary Kozlovski [1]


Civil 
party Thouch Phandara testifies at the ECCC on Wednesday.

Victim impact hearings continued on May 29, 2013, at the Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia (ECCC). Four civil parties made statements about the harm they suffered under the Democratic Kampuchea (DK) regime, either before or after being questioned by their lawyers.

Prosecutors and defense attorneys were able briefly to question civil parties about facts in the case during the hearing, which veered off schedule at times. The civil parties who testified were Thouch Phandara, Chan Socheat, Huo Chantha, and Chheng Eng Ly, who spoke last via video-link from France after the court had connectivity issues. Two further victim impact hearings will be held on May 30 and June 4, 2013.

On May 29, 2013, 600 students and teachers from Kampong Cham province’s Koh Sotin district and 50 NGO workers from Phnom Penh attended the hearing. Khieu Samphan was present in the courtroom, while Nuon Chea observed proceedings remotely from a holding cell because of his health issues. Both defendants replied to some questions from civil parties during the course of proceedings.

First Civil Party Speaks of Experience under Khmer Rouge
Civil party Thouch Phandara, a 67-year-old French citizen, was called to the stand. She told Trial Chamber President Nil Nonn that she was born August 22, 1946, in Phnom Penh and currently lives in Paris.

Beginning her testimony, Ms. Phandara said her family was happy when the Khmer Rouge entered Phnom Penh on April 17, 1975, because the war seemed to be over and her mother waved a white flag. However, in the afternoon, Khmer Rouge soldiers asked them to leave for three days to avoid bombing and because the government needed to “clean up” the city, she recalled. Ms. Phandara recollected that they were initially hesitant but after about an hour, more aggressive soldiers came and asked them to pack their bags and leave, so her father ordered the family to do so. She told the court she had two young children and two nephews with her at the time; she tried to gather some clothing, water, and medicine and then tied the four children together because there were so many people on the streets. The civil party described how the family had two cars that they eventually had to push and her younger sister had a bicycle. Upon arriving at the road to Sihanoukville, Ms. Phandara testified that an aggressive voice demanded her watch and she then heard a gunshot and saw a man who had been killed. “That is when I understood that things were very, very serious – we were all very, very afraid,” she said.

At that point, Ms. Phandara said, the Khmer Rouge took away their cars – with their clothes and their dog, a German shepherd, inside – and her sister’s bicycle. The civil party recalled that they had rice and water along the way to Kilometer 13[2], where they stayed for one night. The following day, Ms. Phandara stated, soldiers forced them to move with the masses of people and she witnessed women giving birth in the street; sick people with intravenous drips in their beds on the road “under the burning sun”; people who could not walk; and children forced to abandon their parents, who are considered sacred in Cambodia.

The civil party recollected that then they spent two or three nights in a village called Kampong Meas.[3] Before they entered the village, her grandmother’s three nephews told them to destroy their administrative documents and identification cards and change their names. Ms. Phandara testified that they stayed in the village for a little while[4], with the women working in the nearby fields and some of the men working quite far away and returning every ten days. The civil party stated that there were spies in the village and her grandmother’s nephews gave them rice and cassava but there was no fish. Thereafter, she recalled, they were asked to board trucks and were taken to Kampong Chhnang and then Pursat. From Pursat, Ms. Phandara stated, they took a cattle train to Phnom Choeuntinh[5], where “the famine” began and they had to build an improvised shack. They started working early in the morning and returned late at night and received only a ladle of rice, Ms. Phandara said, adding that the children were hungry and soaked because it was rainy season.

Crying, Ms. Phandara continued, recalling that her father had to pull an oxcart by himself and she saw him age ten years in a few days. One day, she said, they were denounced and the Khmer Rouge came to collect them – six families altogether, though her ill husband remained in the shack – and brought them to unknown location. Ms. Phandara recalled that they were questioned harshly and repetitively all morning and asked to provide their biographies, to which they responded that they were ordinary people, like traders and shopkeepers. She stated that the wife of a general almost broke down but managed to collect herself, and they were eventually released in the afternoon and given rice with dried fish to eat. Ms. Phandara said she had heard rumors that they would be given food and then killed, but they were allowed to leave. However, the civil party told the court, the family was separated and watched by spies. According to Ms. Phandara, her elderly parents were sent to work with teenagers and, because they could not secure food, they died in 1976, along with her entire family.

Civil Party Lawyer Questions Thouch Phandara
After clarifying to the civil party lawyer that Viet Cong rockets fell on her house in 1972, Ms. Phandara described how she became a compulsive eater after leaving Cambodia in 1979 and always longed for food. “I can do without a great deal of things – comfort, money, whatever, even a roof over my head – but I need to have food,” she told the court. When asked about her parents, Ms. Phandara replied that in Cambodia children venerate their parents and seeing her parents die before they were old, without being able to give back to them, would never be erased from her memory:

The conditions in which they died were not worthy of animals. It’s better for animals they get buried, but my parents died in a way that there are no words to describe. Thrown into the ditch, naked. I don’t even know the place where he was discarded, and I retain a terrible feeling of guilt about this – not having been able to save my parents. If I was perhaps a little braver I might have been able to feed them, bring them some rice, something. You never erase memories like that.

Continuing, Ms. Phandara told the court she was present to ask for justice, to give the deceased back their souls because they were “lost between the living and the dead.”

International Civil Party Co-Lawyer Marie Guiraudhad projected four photographs that Ms. Phandara had managed to keep throughout the Khmer Rouge period. The first was a photograph of Ms. Phandara’s son, a little boy in a striped shirt, whom she testified had died after contracting meningitis – identified by his father who was a doctor – after he took a biscuit from a dog’s mouth. Ms. Phandara stated that they tried to exchange some of their jewelry for penicillin but no one had any medicine. She recollected that her son wore a yellow T-shirt with writing on the front that said, “If I smile to you, do you smile to me?” when he died.

Noting that there were photographs of Ms. Phandara’s mother and husband – both of whom died in 1976 – Ms. Guiraudinquired how Ms. Phandara was able to keep the photographs. The civil party responded that she wrapped them in plastic and sometimes hid them underground but always took them with her when she went to work. Under questioning about the experience of arriving in France as a refugee in 1979 with her sister and surviving son after the Khmer Rouge period ended, Ms. Phandara stated that she had lived three lives: a fine life with her parents before the Khmer Rouge period, “sheer hell” during that period, and a struggle in France thereafter. Ms. Phandara described how she endured periods of “terrible solitude” in France because she had to fight for everything: retaking her driver’s test, taking evening classes to obtain the same degrees and diplomas as she had in Cambodia, and undertaking menial jobs. The civil party reflected that though she knew something of French culture, France was an enormous place and she found herself in a world of different transport and seasons; winter, in particular, was difficult – with strikes and a child and sister to feed. She confessed that she broke down at one point and had to attend a psychiatric facility for three months.

When asked if she spoke of the Khmer Rouge period to her family from France who did not speak Khmer, Ms. Phandara replied that she sometimes spoke of it to her younger son and spoke of it often to her husband and friends. Ms. Phandara stated that her thoughts in court were with her mother, whom she did not see die. She told the court she had an image of her mother – so hungry that she had almost “withered away” – going to the canteen with her rice bowl, staggering and falling because she was so emaciated, and crawling and picking up grains of rice. “Mother, I am telling you that I am bringing this case to the court for you, to bring justice for you,” Ms. Phandara added.

Accused Respond to Thouch Phandara
At this point, Ms. Phandara inquired of the two accused why the Khmer Rouge had focused on “17 April people”[6] when they had the same status as them, and about the purpose of criticism and self-criticism sessions.

First, Khieu Samphan rose and responded at length, beginning by expressing his sorrow at her statement. He stated that he was an intellectual, not a Communist Party of Kampuchea (CPK) ideologue, and some DK leaders and members of the government considered him a highly educated intellectual who was useless and whose feet were not “attached to the ground.” Khieu Samphan contended that he had to flee Phnom Penh, seek refuge with the CPK, and join the party, and subsequently learned about their ideology.

According to Khieu Samphan, CPK ideology held that revolution had to go through two stages, the first of which was national democratic revolution where they had to struggle against French colonialism and American imperialism. During this stage national forces had to be united in resistance against capitalism, which oppressed the peasant class, Khieu Samphan said. He asserted that many Phnom Penh residents joined the resistance movement and participated in different ways, such as through demonstrations, activities opposing the Lon Nol regime, or collecting money to purchase malaria medicine for those in the jungle.

Continuing, Khieu Samphan related that the second stage was the socialist revolution and construction of communism. Pol Pot announced at the first Central Committee meeting[7] that the victory of April 17, 1975, was the end of the “popular democratic revolutionary movement,” which indicated the united front and the GRUNK (Royal Government of National Union of Kampuchea), Khieu Samphan stated. After Vietnam reconciled the situation in their country they turned to attack Cambodia, which had to rebuild the country urgently and not allow Vietnam to “catch up and swallow us,” he asserted. Khieu Samphan described “socialist revolution and the construction” as, generally, the concept that all land belonged to the cooperatives and became the property of the people, thereby avoiding land conflicts and allowing dams and canals to be built faster.

Khieu Samphan recalled seeing canals and dams in 1976, including Trapaing Thmor[8] – “like a sea in the middle of the field” – and one to the west of Battambang, which was huge. He said dry land was transformed into rice fields, which excited him because it meant that people would be fed sufficiently and the surplus could be exported overseas, particularly to friendly countries such as China, Korea, and Yugoslavia. He added that they could then buy hoes, knives, and axes and build factories with imported iron to construct gates to irrigate rice fields. Machines were indeed bought but not distributed because Vietnamese forces invaded Cambodia, he said. However, he told the court that during the proceedings he had been shocked to hear witnesses and civil parties testify because he was unaware that dams and canals had been built in exchange for such great loss.

On the question of criticism and self-criticism, Khieu Samphan stated that the CPK fell within the framework of the ideological principles of class and class struggle, for party members in particular, because they had to sacrifice the most to be an example. The accused said he had to participate in such meetings to become part of the proletariat during the stage of socialist construction. However, he asserted, he retained the mentality of a capitalist because he still had funds for his relatives and family members. Khieu Samphan related that some intellectual leaders who went through class struggle, criticism, and self-criticism successfully built themselves by throwing off their capitalist class and focusing everything on the resistance movement. He apologized for being unable to answer Ms. Phandara’s questions, as he was not a DK ideologue.

Next, Nuon Chea[9] stated that he expressed his respect for the souls of Cambodian people and survivors who lost their relatives under DK. He contended that during the regime things were complicated but he was a DK leader and acknowledged that the leadership was not perfect. Nuon Chea said he understood the CPK held that there should be no distinction between base people and 17 April people because the party had to reunite the country for solidarity and defense from invasions by aggressive and expansionist neighboring countries. Additionally, the accused asserted that the purpose of criticism and self-criticism was to eradicate the bad, non-compatriot elements within people, not to get rid of individuals.

After President Nonn began to instruct the civil party to make her statement of harm, Nuon Chea interjected and told the court that his family had also suffered, as his nephew died, along with his teacher and relatives: “Why should I kill my own people or my relatives or my nation?” He said he could not defend or protect his own family because after liberation he met his mother and she wept, telling him that she was pushed to the ground during the evacuation. “She said that ‘I was in my native village: why should I be forced to evacuate from my native village?’ Allow me to say that under DK regime, there were those bad people as well,” Nuon Chea concluded.

Then, when asked to make her statement of suffering, Ms. Phandara turned toward Khieu Samphan and said only that she would like to ask him – a Buddhist and intellectual like herself – to pray for the souls of the people who died and survived, if he so wished. Again, Khieu Samphan stood and responded that he had been unaware that her relatives and family members experienced such misery and suffering, along with other Cambodian people including some base people. He asserted that he could also not forget the souls of people and combatants who crawled under the B-52 bombing to liberate Phnom Penh and lost their lives in the process. He said he wished to pray and express his respect for her family and the souls of Cambodian people who died after the “American war.”

Prosecution Briefly Questions Thouch Phandara
After the accused’s responses, International Senior Assistant Co-Prosecutor Keith Raynor inquired about the identity of General Thach Sary as mentioned in Ms. Phandara’s testimony. Ms. Phandara testified that General Thach Sary was her cousin by marriage, and her other cousin said she saw him executed after being called on the radio to present himself at the Ministry of Information on the day Khmer Rouge forces entered Phnom Penh. The civil party recalled that he was part of General Lon Nol’s security detail.

Turning to another point in Ms. Phandara’s testimony, Mr. Raynor asked what time of year it was that she traveled on the cattle train through Pursat province. She replied that she could not say but soldiers pushed them on board the vehicle, which was “jam-packed” with people. When pressed for detail about her time at Phnom Choeuntinh, Ms. Phandara said there were many health problems; people had nothing to eat and tried to gather wild vegetables. She described her thumb swelling after she got a thorn stuck in it and her husband operating on it. “I saw people who had eaten too many wild plants, who got diarrhea and began to die, but it was in 1976 that people started to expire in large numbers,” she testified.

Defense Teams Cross-Examine Civil Party
National Co-Lawyer for Nuon Chea Son Arun began the defense’s questioning by inquiring as to how Ms. Chandara knew that a Viet Cong rocket hit her house in 1972. She replied that a document typewritten in French that belonged to her father – who worked under General Thach Sary after being financial director of the water administration – mentioned on May 6 that the Viet Cong shelled his house. Her lawyers had a copy of the document, Ms. Phandara added. In response to further questions, she testified that she recognized Khmer Rouge soldiers on April 17, 1975, because they were wearing black uniforms and carrying guns.

International Co-Lawyer for Nuon Chea Victor Koppe requested the name of Ms. Phandara’s cousin who told her that General Thach Sary was executed. The civil party replied that her cousin Yourn, who was in the military and later moved to France but died two years ago, told her in August[10] in the jungle in PhnomChoeuntinh. The Khieu Samphan defense had no questions.

Second Civil Party Called to the Stand
Next, 56-year-old civil party Chan Socheat approached the stand. She told the court that she was born in Phnom Penh and currently lives in Pursat province’s Pursat district, working as a rice farmer and in the commune office. She told President Nonn that she has a husband and five children.

Speaking at length about the Khmer Rouge period, Ms. Socheat began by saying that on April 17, 1975, she and other Phnom Penh residents were evacuated from the city. Ms. Socheat testified that she had a 15-member family, including her two parents and siblings, and the evacuation was difficult. Khmer Rouge soldiers entered their house with weapons at around 9 a.m. and told them to leave for three days so that they could get rid of the enemy, while another group of soldiers warned them that American bombing was imminent, she recalled. Ms. Socheat told the court they were scared and only managed to bring a bicycle and motorbike to carry some belongings and containers of water for her younger siblings. En route, the situation was even more difficult, Ms. Socheat said, recollecting that she saw masses of people on Monivong Boulevard, including people on their hands and knees, some dead along the road, and some crying for their children and family members.

The civil party recalled that her family kept walking, crossed the bridge, and stayed three nights at a pagoda, waiting to return to the city. However, the Khmer Rouge soldiers had lied to them and they were forced to move further eventually stopping at Kien Svay district[11], where they stayed for six months, Ms. Socheat testified. During that period, they suffered from lack of food and were given only rice and corn grains and it was hard for her younger siblings in particular, she said. She described how her younger sister could not get breast milk, only liquid gruel, and later died. They had only a small amount of money, which eventually could not be used.

After the six months passed, Ms. Socheat said, the Angkar leader in the area announced that people who left Phnom Penh would be allowed to return and her father – an engineer – was very happy, though people whispered to them that it was a lie; her father, however, was determined to return because the living conditions in the area were bad for his children. They boarded a motorboat with hundreds of families that arrived at the riverfront outside the Royal Palace, she recalled, at which point everyone cheered. Ms. Socheat testified that one man about 30 years of age – who shouted, “Bravo – now we arrived in Phnom Penh” – was called by the Khmer Rouge; passengers heard two shots and he fell into the water. Everyone became silent, she recollected, even the children. From Phnom Penh, Ms. Socheat said the boat traveled to Kampong Chhnang province where they were given cans of rice to share between three people and boarded trucks to Pursat province, eventually stopping at O’Leach in Mong Russei district.[12] They had to walk to a village, which was plain jungle with an old rice barn to the south of the road and three houses for district soldiers, she added.

Ms. Socheat described how, upon arrival, they were instructed to clear the forest and build their own houses, after which they were told that they would eat and work communally. The civil party told the court she worked in the female unit and her younger siblings either worked in the children’s unit or were permitted to remain with her parents. Her father cleared the land and planted vegetables, including pumpkins, while she was told to build dams and given only a ladle of watery gruel per day, Ms. Socheat said, adding that she became sick and her younger siblings were emaciated or swollen. “The situation was miserable, the food was insufficient, and the work was too heavy,” she detailed. After falling sick, Ms. Socheat recalled, she came back to the house and had only ruined rice and a bit of morning glory to eat, but they were not allowed to find other food.

Weeping, Ms. Socheat testified that two of her younger siblings died of hunger, followed by her father who died in his sleep. “We were starved and we were given food like animals,” she said. Thereafter, the civil party stated, her mother became seriously ill and was hospitalized, where she received rice and injections. After her mother improved, Ms. Socheat related, she and her sister were forced into hard labor, receiving one or two ladles of watery rice if they met their quotas and being beaten if they did not. One day, Ms. Socheat told the court, she managed get three cans of rice and tried to leave with her sister but eventually returned to the village.[13] The civil party said her mother was gone and after cooking the cans of rice, Ms. Socheat fell sick and went to hospital, where she found her mother critically ill. The civil party described cooking whatever she could find to survive, including stolen pumpkins.

At this point, Ms. Socheat testified that she saw Nuon Chea on a bicycle; he asked her where she was going, told the unit chief that the unit was under Angkar’s umbrella, and asked him to give her some food.[14] She described how she one day returned from her worksite to be told that her sister had died and was buried. She also recalled that villagers in her area whom she harvested crops with then told her that her mother was critically ill, but she was not permitted by the unit chief to visit her and did not see her mother from that point on. At the time, Ms. Socheat said, she was in a mobile unit and was sent from one place to the next to cultivate crops. In 1977, the food was insufficient, with ten people given three cans of rice to eat communally and only able to drink water from a contaminated stream, the civil party added. She stated that they could only visit family members one or two days a month. Ms. Socheat testified that she was lonely because she had lost her whole family.

We had to meet the quotas otherwise we would be accused of being the Vietnamese enemy. We were considered feudalists. … They threatened to hit us with a hoe, so we had to work extremely hard at that time – beyond any human capacity – to handle the hard labor.

Lawyer Seeks More Detail from Civil Party and Accused Respond to Queries
Under questioning from International Civil Party Co-Lawyer Christine Martineau, Ms. Socheat replied that she wished to ask the co-accused why the Khmer Rouge were so cruel and committed such atrocities. She said she had endured tremendous suffering and wished the court to find justice for all Cambodian families, including her family, which was why she filed her civil party application. She added that she hoped her testimony would help the court find justice and requested that the accused admit their guilt and apologize to those who died during the Khmer Rouge period “so that their souls will rest in peace.”

Noting that Ms. Socheat had children born after 1980, Ms. Martineau asked how she replied to questions from them about how she survived when the rest of her family had died. The civil party recalled her experience under the regime, including how she saw people killed and observed the dead bodies, and stated that she could not do anything at the time but try to work as hard as she could so that she could not be accused of being an enemy or being feudalist.

In response to Ms. Socheat’s questions to the accused, Khieu Samphan said that her statement shocked him and those who inflicted torturous acts against her family and did not spare people’s lives were cruel and merciless. He continued:

I found it terrifying when you said that people were accused of being enemy, or people would feign to be sick or something. These people were really cruel and they were senseless. Even though I am not a leader of DK, I was not the person who made the decision on the political direction of DK; I shared the suffering with you and your family. And I would like to express my sincere sympathy, and I would also like to express my apology to you, your family, and the national compatriots. I made it clear this morning that Cambodian family members endured these atrocities. I only want to once again state that those who committed these atrocities were not ordinary people – they were the merciless leaders.

After Khieu Samphan finished speaking, Nuon Chea asserted that he had repeatedly clarified that DK did not have a policy to kill their own people or deprive them of food. He stated that DK wished to gather their national forces to prevent Cambodia from being invaded and swallowed by neighboring countries and to liberate Cambodia from imperialist powers. The accused said he wished to express sympathy to those who lost their lives and share his condolences with their families, and reiterate that DK had a “good purpose” for the nation and its people. “Each and every one of us sacrificed our personal happiness; we sacrificed ourselves for our nation,” Nuon Chea concluded. “I respect the souls of the national compatriots who sacrificed their lives, who lost their lives, during that period.”

Short Examination of Civil Party by Prosecution
After the two accused finished responding to Ms. Socheat’s questions, Mr. Raynor sought clarification on how many of the civil party’s siblings had died while the family was in Kien Svay. The civil party replied that her sister Sophea died because she did not have any milk to drink; she could not take the watery rice with a little bit of sugar that she was given.

About the boat trip she took from Phnom Penh to Kampong Chhnang, Ms. Socheat testified that new people boarded the boat at Champa pagoda to go to Kampong Chhnang, at which point they disembarked and boarded trucks to Leach, from where they traveled by train to Oukreath village in Mong Russei. The trains also carried animals, and passengers were not given food or drink, Ms. Socheat said, adding that they collected water at one point and were given rice at another stop.[15] She testified that she had no choice but to get on the train in the presence of military personnel. “If we resist, we would be killed because they were armed with rifles,” Ms. Socheat informed the prosecutor.

After arriving at the village in Battambang, the civil party stated, one of her younger brothers died of starvation. “It was hell on earth,” Ms. Socheat testified. She told the court that evacuees were targeted as feudalists and within a week, six or seven of her family members died of starvation. There were only wild plants to eat, which caused some people to suffer from serious diarrhea and die, she added.

Khieu Samphan Defense Revisits Incident on Boat
After the Nuon Chea defense announced that they had no questions for the civil party, National Co-Lawyer for Khieu Samphan Kong Sam Onn pressed Ms. Socheat for further details about the incident she described of a man being shot on the boat as it arrived in Phnom Penh. Ms. Socheat replied that she could not say how much time there was between the man’s exclamation and the shooting.

Third Civil Party’s Testimony Delayed due to Technical Problems
Briefly, Chheng Eng Ly told President Nonn via video from France that she was 60 years old, born in Phnom Penh, and currently lived in Paris. She is married with five children. However, as Ms. Eng Ly began to speak further there was a lengthy delay caused by internet connectivity problems, and the next civil party was called to the stand while the technical issues were resolved.

Another Civil Party Begins Her Testimony

Civil party Huo Chantha entered the courtroom and took the stand. She told President Nonn that she was 60 years old and born in Prey Veng province’s Ba Phnom district, but currently lived in Pouk Russey village, in Kandal province. Ms. Chantha said she was a merchant, her husband is a teacher, and they have five children.

After Ms. Chantha received permission to read from a prepared written statement describing her experiences and suffering during the DK period, she began by saying that under the Lon Nol regime, her family was quite wealthy because they had a grocery shop. She told the court she was the fourth child of nine, three of whom were married and public servants in the Lon Nol regime in Phnom Penh, with plots of land, houses, motorbikes, and valuable jewelry. In 1972, Ms. Chantha said, she married a teacher and lived rather wealthily as they had a motorbike, jewelry, and their own house. They did not know what hardship meant, she added. On April 16, 1975, Ms. Chantha recalled that the sound of gunshots came from the area around Pochentong[16] and in the city generally, but at 8 a.m. on April 17, 1975, her neighbors stood raising white flags, as did they, shouting that the war had ended and peace prevailed. Young, black-clad Khmer Rouge soldiers walked in line on the street but did not welcome the applause, Ms. Chantha recollected. She elaborated:

They were silent, and they had this firm facial expression. The happiness did not last long because these black-clad soldiers who were carrying weapons shouted to us, “You must leave the city now as they need to sweep clean the city for three days.” We left along Pochentong Road. The situation was rather confusing for my family, as we did not know what to take and what not. The Khmer Rouge kept threatening us – “you must leave immediately” – and they also fired some shots into the air to threaten us. This unanticipated situation caused us confusion, and we were scared.

Describing the circumstances of the evacuation further, Ms. Chantha told the court she was dizzy and trembling and afraid that she would not return and would be separated from her parents. She described people along the road driving vehicles slowly, driving motorbikes, walking bikes, and carrying things on their heads and shoulders, as well as people tripping and women who had just given birth walking “under the open sky and the rain.” Ms. Chantha spoke of disabled and young people being exhausted, young children crying because their feet hurt, and the corpses of Lon Nol soldiers. After arriving at another location, she and her family looked for a place to prepare food and collect water, and she slept on the road, asking herself when she would be able to return to her normal life. Ms. Chantha recalled hearing rumors that evening that the regime abolished currency and she wondered how they could buy food and what would happen to her life savings.

The next morning, the civil party told the court, she hired a boat, crossed the river, and kept walking, eventually reaching a pond from which she and others drank contaminated water. In total, it took 15 days for the family to reach Pouk Russey village, where they all slept under one roof without any walls as it rained heavily, Ms. Chantha recalled. Her family attempted to find materials to build a small hut, but less than two days later they were called to a meeting and told about the unit chief they were supposed to report to, she said. Ms. Chantha testified that in June 1975, her brother-in-law was called away to a meeting by two youths and she never saw him again. After the 17 April people in Pouk Russey village ran out of food, the unit chief once gave them about five kilograms of almost spoiled husk rice that smelled terrible, Ms. Chantha said, adding that some of her family exchanged belongings for food but the situation continued to worsen.

Testifying that the family stayed in the area for the whole regime, Ms. Chantha described how she was assigned to harvest rice crops even though she did not have slippers to wear and was scolded and blamed for being one of the 17 April people who did not have a sense of struggle. When she was assigned to work in the river, she encountered leeches and was frightened; she later had to mind cattle even though she was afraid of bulls – one day a bull attacked her – and also had to pick morning glory and feed pigs.

Ms. Chantha testified that she gave birth but had to continue working, transplanting rice for many hours before she could return home to breastfeed her child. The civil party described being pushed into a pigpen one day and covered with excrement after the person in charge blamed her for not carrying enough feed. She stated that she was discriminated against because she was accused of being a “new person” and her physical strength diminished daily because she lacked food. Ms. Chantha recalled that her husband – descended from a city family – came home exhausted from looking after a pair of ox and then in 1978 was assigned to carry earth far from home. She said he developed a heart problem. Everyday they thought of their families and wondered why the regime inflicted torture and did not allow them sufficient food, Ms. Chantha recollected. She testified that some of her family members told them they were to go for training and re-education, but never returned. She stated, “They killed the officials, the civil servants of the Lon Nol administration, and we were questioning to ourselves why this regime killed the former officials. We wanted to know who the leaders of this regime were … and what nationality they were.”

After the regime, Ms. Chantha stated, she was happy because her second child was born and she believed she could look for her parents. Upon meeting her former neighbors, Ms. Chantha recalled, she was told that her mother and five siblings were executed during the regime and that her mother was killed after being accused of possessing gold. “The next morning when I woke up I wanted to die, I really want to follow them, but I heard the crying of my small baby, so I had to live,” she said. “I am the only survivor … of the nine siblings. My grandparents, my parents, and other relatives – 22 of them altogether – died due to diseases and starvation and other causes.”

Ms. Chantha described how the Khmer Rouge killed three of her brothers. She testified that her mother escaped from a detention center after being accused of not contributing gold to her cooperative. Ms. Chantha said her mother met with her five siblings, who were all arrested and killed along with her mother when Khmer Rouge soldiers located them. “Who were the leaders of this regime? Why did they allow Khmer to kill Khmer?” she asked.

The civil party repeated that she had no family members but had her husband and two children to support her. She told the court her husband suffered from heart problem and she had to sew clothes and raise pigs to raise money for him to get treatment. He then died in 1995.[17] Ms. Chantha testified that she was angry at the regime because her whole family was destroyed and she suffered from psychiatric problems and hypertension resulting from the shock of her experience during DK. She told the court that she tried her best to be on her feet in court to find justice for her family and was excited to have the opportunity to testify:

This is the day that I have been waiting for [for] more than 30 years with anxiety. Today, I would like to summon the spirits of my parents, uncles, grand uncles, aunts, and all the relatives – totaling 22 who died under the regime – to be here with me, in order to hear the prosecution by this court of the murderers and to find justice for you all and in order to be sure that they will be judged when they die.

Continuing, Ms. Chantha requested that the court judge fairly and justly and in proportion to the gravity of the crimes committed against the nation and the people through torture and other cruel acts. She said the perpetrators who killed her family should be punished severely for the thousand years of their lives and should not be reincarnated as human beings. The civil party added:

I’d like to appeal to the true leaders of DK: you are now very old and this is the final stage of your life. For that reason, you should be courageous, to collect all your strength in order to shed light and tell the truth to all the victims and all the civil parties who are anxious to hear, to find justice and the truth, [about] why your regime exterminated the people.

Ms. Chantha appealed to organizations, institutions, and donors to continue providing support to the civil parties in proportion to their loss. She asked that the tribunal investigate the properties inside and outside Cambodia that might belong to the accused, so that if they are found guilty, the property can be used to compensate victims who suffered for more than 30 years. “This court cannot end its mandate in failure, you must endeavor hard to find justice for the victims,” she concluded.

Civil party Puts Questions to the Accused
Finally, Ms. Chantha asked the accused to questions. Firstly, she inquired if it was the regime’s policy that her mother and elder brother – who had gold – should be prosecuted and executed for not putting it into the cooperative. Secondly, she asked whether during the Khmer Rouge period, when they were embracing their wives in an “air-con or fanned” room, they imagined the situation of the people, who were wondering what mistakes they made and why they were being killed.[18]

Khieu Samphan repeated that her statement shocked him but he was not a DK leader and did not comprehend why such things occurred. He emphasized that he was promoted to the position of head of state to replace then Prince Norodom Sihanouk, who did not have any executive authority. “I was in a similar situation,” he affirmed. In response to the first question, Khieu Samphan said to him it was incorrect that it was regime policy to execute her mother and brother for not putting gold into the cooperative. He stated that the regime only needed agricultural land and products to expedite the building of the country, as he heard them saying in a Central Committee meeting. Khieu Samphan then affirmed that he did not know anything about the confiscation of personal belongings, like gold and diamonds.

Continuing with his responses, Khieu Samphan said he did not have a big villa and though he was the head of state, it was a nominal role in which he had no executive authority. “I only represented an independent and sovereign Kampuchea,” the defendant asserted. He stated that he was a member of the Central Committee: a candidate member until late 1975 before becoming a fully-fledged member in early 1976. “Although in the party statue it states that the Central Committee was the supreme organization of the entire party, in the actual practice … this existed only on paper,” Khieu Samphan contended. Additionally, the defendant said he was not responsible for any zone, sector, or military unit but maintained good relations with Norodom Sihanouk and distributed goods to zones and sectors upon their request, based on Standing Committee approval. He added:

Therefore it is clear that I could not know the suffering and the misery as described by you. And you can put the question that I participated in the Standing Committee’s meeting. I did participate in the meeting in my capacity as head of state, as I needed to liaise with friendly countries or heads of state, and for that reason I needed to know some matters concerning the development of the country. And for that reason, I was asked to participate in that kind of meeting, and that kind of meeting was a broad meeting for members like myself because for certain meetings I was not allowed to know. And there were a lot of meetings that were held and I was not allowed to know, in particular regarding the meetings concerning the arrest.

Finally, Khieu Samphan said he was also criticized during the Central Committee meetings and asked to criticize and self-criticize and to talk about his class stance. He told the court:

As Nuon Chea stated this morning, the education or the refashioning was for the elements, not for the individual. I was not killed but they could not refashion me when it comes to my elements, because that was part of me. … I hope you understand that I did not have the authority to make any decisions; whatever they wanted me to know they would only allow me to know and nothing else.

After Khieu Samphan finished speaking, Mr. Arun said Nuon Chea was tired and dizzy and could not think straight or consider questions clearly, and therefore invoked his right to remain silent. Neither the prosecution nor either defense team had questions for Ms. Chantha.

Fourth Civil Party Testifies via Video

After the connection was re-established, Ms. Eng Ly spoke of her experiences under the Khmer Rouge, beginning by stating that she could not forget the events that occurred under the Khmer Rouge over 30 years ago. On April 17, 1975, Ms. Eng Ly told the court, she saw Khmer Rouge soldiers hack a baby to death and witnessed many people dying along the road during the evacuation. The civil party testified that she left Phnom Penh via National Road 1 and witnessed corpses floating along the river. She recalled crossing the river at Kien Svay in an attempt to go to her parents’ native province of Battambang, but could not make it. Ms. Eng Ly said her parents were sick and her siblings’ bodies were swollen from malnutrition and they had only the clothes on their backs. Two or three weeks after April 17, 1975, she said, money was still being used and they bought food; money could not be used later, though, and the family was placed in a cooperative and given only rations. “We were given three ladles of watery gruel only with a few grains of husk rice and a little bit of salt,” Ms. Eng Ly added.

The civil party told the court that their freedom was deprived and they were forbidden to cry, love, or speak. They were asked to work from 5 a.m. until noon, she recounted, when they were given three ladles of gruel, and then worked again until late evening when they received another three ladles, before continuing to work until 10 or 11 p.m when there was no light. The work was hard, and they sometimes stumbled in the dark and had only one set of black clothes to wear, Ms. Eng Ly said, adding that there was no medical treatment or medicine when people were sick and seriously ill people were given only a pellet. “Could you imagine living without freedom?” she asked, describing how she carried baskets of rice or corn on her head.

Ms. Eng Ly testified that after her friend Muy, who also left Phnom Penh, said she was thinking of her two younger siblings, two black-clad soldiers called on the two of them the next morning and ordered them to walk across a rice field. The soldiers asked Muy to dig a pit of about her size, before pushing her into it and burying her alive, Ms. Eng Ly told the court. “They said that ‘Now we send you to meet with your relatives,’” Ms. Eng Ly recalled. “And the two soldiers said to me, ‘Now you see what happened; now you return to work.’” The civil party recalled that she did not dare to cry or tell anyone and went back to carrying rice on her head. Ms. Eng Ly said she was so shocked at witnessing this that she fell unconscious and as she awakened, a medic was attempting to inject her with some fluid, which she declined. Ms. Eng Ly described how she fell down every few days because of exhaustion and thought about jumping into the river because living in such a situation was meaningless. However, Ms. Eng Ly told the court, she knew that if she died, her mother would have nobody to look after her, so she decided not to commit suicide.

Ms. Eng Ly repeated that she could not forget what occurred under the Khmer Rouge regime, stating that what they did – killing millions of people – was miserable. She testified that her experience remained with her; she could not watch anything bloody on the television or elsewhere – even in her capacity as a pharmacist – and she was sensitive to loud noises and large groups of people.

Lawyer Presses Civil Party for Further Detail on Evacuation
After Ms. Eng Ly finished her statement, International Civil Party Co-Lawyer Pascal Auboin sought more information about the baby she saw being killed as she left Phnom Penh. Ms. Eng Ly replied that as she crossed Monivong Bridge, she saw a crying baby crawling over the body of his dead mother because it did not have any milk. She testified that she wanted to carry the baby, but she could do nothing and was horrified as a soldier “tore the baby apart.” Ms. Eng Ly said she kept walking because she feared for her own safety.

Regarding her arrival at the cooperative, Ms. Eng Ly stated that they reached it in the evening of the second day and a group of about 20 or more people from Phnom Penh gathered and began planning a protest – a rebellion against the authorities. She described how they wished to return to Phnom Penh so they had enough food to eat and could use their bank notes. Ms. Eng Ly testified that she was horrified when Khmer Rouge soldiers later tied these people’s hands together with thread and frogmarched them away; she assumed that they were executed.[19] She described her unit as having around 20 members, including those who were senior, middle-aged, and young, along with the unit chief. Ms. Eng Ly said the unit chief was a cruel, aggressive woman who did not speak to the people politely and accused them of being 17 April people. The civil party said the unit chief used vulgar language, where Cambodian people – women especially – traditionally addressed each other politely.

When asked about the impact of seeing her friend buried alive, Ms. Eng Ly answered that she knew her friend had committed no wrongdoing and upon witnessing it, she became exhausted and could not do anything. She reiterated that she did not dare to tell anyone at the time because her life would have been in danger. Detailing her suffering as a result of the regime, Ms. Eng Ly testified that she had been affected physically and psychologically, with the hard labor impacting on her physical growth and her experiences causing severe psychological effects.

Prosecution Questions Chheng Eng Ly
As civil party lawyers ended their questioning, National Deputy Co-Prosecutor Seng Bunkheang inquired about the events that occurred before Ms. Eng Ly left for Rokar Kaong.[20] Ms. Eng Ly replied that black-clad soldiers forced them to leave their house in Phnom Penh on April 17, 1975, so she went along with others along National Road 1 until they ran out of food. “I thought to myself that if I continue to stay in Kien Svay, I would end up starving to death,” she said. The civil party added that soldiers in Phnom Penh told them the U.S. bombardment was imminent and she left with her brothers[21] and elderly mother who, like other elderly people, was shocked, but encouraged them to go as ordered. Ms. Eng Ly told the court that older people had been through many regimes and administrations and were therefore strong in spirit. She described how black-clad soldiers ordered people to move when she took the boat from Kien Svay to Rokar Kaong, though she did not know where they were heading at the time.

When asked if the corpses she saw in the river were civilians or soldiers, Ms. Eng Ly responded that it was difficult to say because she was unsure and had no time to look. Finally, Mr. Bunkheang inquired who inducted Ms. Eng Ly into the cooperative in Rokar Kaong. The civil party replied that she could not remember but there was an announcement along the road that new people from Phnom Penh had to join cooperatives and those with belongings must surrender them for common use. She said the regime wished to create a situation where no one was richer than anyone else.

With this response, the prosecution finished examining Ms. Eng Ly, and both defense teams told the chamber they had no questions. President Nonn adjourned the hearing for the day. Proceedings in Case 002 are set to resume on Thursday, May 30, at 9 a.m. with another victim impact hearing.



[1]Cambodia Tribunal Monitor’s daily blog posts on the ECCC are written according to the personal observations of the writer and do not constitute a transcript of the proceedings. Official court transcripts for the ECCC’s hearings may be accessed at http://www.eccc.gov.kh/en/case/topic/2.

[2]The location of “Kilometer 13” is unclear.

[3]It is unclear where Kampong Meas village is located.

[4]After Ms. Phandara initially stated that they stayed in Kampong Meas village for two to three days, she then said they stayed “for a little while,” and her testimony implied that it was for longer than two or three days. However, this was unclear in the English translation.

[5]Based on Ms. Phandara’s testimony, Phnom Choeungtinh was perhaps located in either Battambang or Banteay Meanchey province, but it was unclear in the English translation. Later in her testimony, she appeared to identify the area as “near Battambang.”

[6]“New people” and “17 April people” are terms used to refer to people who were evacuated from cities.

[7]The date and location of this meeting are unclear.

[8]Trapaing Thmor was located in Banteay Meanchey province.

[9]Nuon Chea appeared to have been speaking from his holding cell.

[10]The year was not stated.

[11]Kien Svay district is located in Kandal province.

[12]Mong Russei district is located in Battambang province.

[13]This section of Ms. Socheat’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[14]This section of Ms. Socheat’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[15]This section of Ms. Socheat’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[16]Pochentong is the name of Phnom Penh’s main airport.

[17]Ms. Chantha told President Nonn at the beginning of her testimony that she had a husband and five children. In this section of her testimony, after stating that her husband died in 1995, she said she later had three children and referred to herself as a widow. It was unclear in the English translation if she remarried and had more children, or if the three children mentioned are from her previous marriage.

[18]Ms. Chantha’s third question was slightly unclear in the English translation, but it related to the leaders’ knowledge of what was occurring under the regime.

[19]This section of Ms. Socheat’s testimony was unclear in the English translation.

[20]Rokar Kaong is a village in Kandal province.

[21]It was unclear in the English translation if Ms. Eng Ly said she had two or three brothers.